Das "The Guys"-Debakel - Sneak und Publikum

[Heyka]

Ich weiß nicht recht was ich sagen soll...
Ich bin enttäuscht und schockiert über diesen Abend! (Und seid versichert die Geschäftsleitung auch!). Das ist wirklich das Letzte bei so einer Thematik, so ein Verhalten an den Tag zu legen! Diese Leute sollten sich wirklich schämen!
Bei dieser Sneak hatte ich 2 Freunde aus den USA dabei und gott-sei-dank habe ich sie in den ersten 5 Minuten aus dem Saal gebracht. Denn schon bei der Reaktion auf "my wounded city" habe ich das Kotzen gekriegt!!! Das war nicht nur peinlich...ich hätte weinen können!
Natürlich hätte ich mir gerade an diesem Tag einen passenderen Film gewünscht, aber das ist halt Sneak = Alles ist möglich und nicht immer gefällt es jedem. Aber wenn es nun gar nicht gefällt...dann bitte geht einfach!!!
Heyka

[tenth-row Bob]

Several people in this forum and Heyke this Monday in the sneak seem overly concerned that actual or potential US-Americans in the audience might have been offended by the behavior of the sneak fans. This struck me on Monday and in this forum as a tad bit exaggerated.
I was quite pleased, as an American, that the audience members had the good sense to try and enjoy themselves at the expense of this very poor film.
Isn't that the point of the sneak film? I'm afraid I have to agree with Claudia.

[Gast]

Sorry Bob, but NO!
You didn't see the guy crying outside the theatre...!
And my friends from the states, I had with me, weren't thrilled eather!
I was ashamed and offended, because 9-11 did hurt me too!
It just is a sensitive issue, and people should have the respect to recognise that. Having fun at the Sneak is one thing, but it is not fair to ruin a movie for everybody else.
Heyka

[Heyka]

Nanü, wieso war ich den aufgeloggt...

[tenth-row Bob]

Hi Heyka,
Sorry I misspelled your name and I'm also sorry that you and your friends were offended by the audience reaction to the film. My point -- and this is probably the reason I wasn't too bothered by the cat calls and noise -- is that decent films are seldom the victims of this kind of behavior and terrible films are usually improved. "Wrong Turn" was a fairly mediocre horror film, but I actually enjoyed it more than I would have otherwise because pre-teens (I assume) kept coming and going down the aisle I was sitting in and generally being loud. I have never seen this happen with a film that is actually watchable. I'm sure it WOULD happen if you showed a film like "Dogville" -- in my opinion a good film -- in the Sneak, but I haven't experienced it yet, because films like that are rairly, if ever, shown. Even if the Sneak did show a good film that 500 people in the audience hated and tried to disrupt I don't think the suffering minority would be as shocked and offended as they seem to be about "The Guys" because of the sensitive subject matter.
99.9 of all films shown at the Grindel Sneak are fictional so we probably don't need to worry about Nigerians being offended by Bruce Willis dropping Napalm on them in "Tears of the Sun" or of Cubans being offended by Will Smith dropping bombs on them in "Bad Boys 2".
The problem, in other words, was not the audience, but this, or any bad, film about 9/11 or some other true life tragedy.
Wouldn't it be easier not to show films like that -- there can't be that many 9/11 films waiting for their release dates -- than to tell the teenagers that you will call their parents or put them in kiddie-jail if they step on my feet one more time running in and out of "Wrong Turn"?
The Grindel Sneak is for me a once-a-week guilty pleasure and fountain of youth, even though the distributors who select the films often seem reluctant to supply prints of watchable films. But lectures from school teachers -- and this is sadly the direction the comments in the feedback section are taking -- are something I don't remember missing.
Yes, young people were obnoxious during a terrible film, but do we really need to write letters to the theater owners about this and pass out leaflets?

[Gast]

I totally agree with Heyka, Bob. I was ashamed of the behavior of all those people around me. It's one thing to have fun in a sneak, to make stupid comments to lauch, clap your hands or whatever.
Yes that can be fun and yes that can maybe lift up a really bad movie like wrong turn. It makes it more enjoyable.
But there is a difference between a mediocre horror movie, one of the thousands action movies or a cheap chick flick.
Maybe this movie wasn't one of the better ones (and I'm definitely not sharing that opinion) but it still requires a certain sensitivity of the audience. That's not a 9-11 issue. That applies to other movies as well.
I felt offended as well. I lived in NY and I experienced 9-11. It was tough. That doesn't mean I am all PRo american. Not at all, but that doesn't change the fact that I've seen people suffer and they don't deserve to be made fun of.
If people don't feel like watching that movie they should feel free to leave the theatre but also make sure that interested people get the chance to maybe enjoy the movie. And that was not possible... I couldn't even UNDERSTAND A WORD of what they were saying. That really is sad.
And why not show movies like that? because people don't feel like dealing with more serious subjects? I think that's bullshit!
I hate the idea of not seeing movies liek that in a sneak. Like Dogville, L.I.E. and also the guys.
We've seen tons of really bad horror films. Wrongturn was only one of many. There are action films and romantic comedies all the time. So why not go for something different here and there? Have some variety and more importantly give those movies a chance.
People started yelling right after they had realize that the cheap Halloween splatter movie they all had expected to see wasn't going to be shown. THAT started their reaction immediatly. How can they even dare to judge that movie?

[Jennifer]

Bob,

the sneak might be a "fountain of youth" for YOU, for other people it´s a movie visit they actually PAID for. What would you say if you paid for something and other people ruined it for you, just because THEY thought it wasn´t appropriat. What would you say if a relative or close friend of you was killed in a tragedy like this and some time later you went to the movies and heard people making horrible comments (which they actually thought were funny (!) ) about it. Would you say "oh well, they made the movie more enjoyable?". No movie CAN possibly be made more enjoyable. It´s all a matter of taste. If you don´t like it, fine, go. NO problem. Somebody else might want to watch it even if he or she doesn´t shout it through the whole theater! This is a matter of respect.
And it´s definitely NOT a "pro" or "anti-" American question. It´s about a tragedy that KILLED people. And that´s terrible! And as far as I noticed the comments that were made did not come from the pre-teens, they were mostly made by people that were at least 18-20 years old! Well I hope your "fountain of youth" keeps quiet during the next movies.

Jennifer

[Roughale]

I think the "fountain of youth" thing makes it even easier for us, wait 5 minutes and chuck the heavy disturbers out as they turned underage

<German subtitles>
Ich denke die "Jungbrunnen"sache macht es uns nur leichter, 5 Minuten warten und dann die starken Störer rausschmeissen, da sie minderjährig geworden sind

Übrigens: Vernunft und ein bischen Grips gemischt mit Toleranz tut es auch

[tenth-row bob]

Hallo Jennifer and Roughale,
Both of you make the reasonable point that you don't want other people ruining a film that you paid good money to see. This is generally understandable and in the case of "The Guys" even more so, since the audience reaction to that film made it impossible to follow the dialogue.
I probably don't like wasting five euros any more than you do, but am afraid that the Sneak won't become better by concentrating on one exceptional situation and starting a misguided crusade for better behavior.
Other forum writers are working up a sweat with "härter durchgreifen", "die, die Terror machen", "ungeheuerlich", "krawall macher sofort rausschmeissen" "hirnies", "unduldbar", etc. If this continues, I am afraid that one of my favorite film evenings will turn into a remedial education class or a Schill Parteitag.
On a normal Sneak evening, you get a few stupid comments, two sexist remarks and clapping when the lovebirds are about to kiss. This occasionally gets on my nerves, too, but it doesn't change the fact that the atmosphere on Monday evening is normally quite enjoyable.
If the "Junge Union-härter durchgreif" fraction has its way, I'm afraid that Monday evening will be less fun. EVEN for those who now have the occasional misfortune of having a non-funny loud person in the row behind them.
The basic problem is this: We would all prefer to watch a movie with an audience that doesn't yell and make it unbearable for us. "Dogville" in the Sneak would be a very painful experience for the two or three of us that wanted to watch the film. But "Freddy vs. Jason" would be a very painful experience in the Abaton Sneak, because the people there would hate it, talk with their neighbors, make phone calls and then leave. But that film, although bad, would probably be fun with the typical action and horror film crowd in the Sneak.
I have the feeling that this whole superfluous discussion was caused by the subject matter of the film that night. No one ever bitches about obnoxious audience reactions to other bad films. With the "Guys" everyone seemed mainly concerned that some Americans -- as if we are delicate flowers waiting to wilt -- would get their feelings hurt, which regrettably seems to have been the case. Wouldn't it be easier to avoid this, as I already suggested, by not showing films about real life tragedies with American victims.

[Kai aus Reihe 9]

Moin!

Du verfehlst den Punkt, Bob (10. Reihe?).

Zum einen ist die politische Ausrichtung hier vollkommen irrelevant. Links oder rechts, oben oder unten, kein Mensch verhält sich am Montag abend in der Sneak gemäß seiner politischen Präferenz. Rechts will nicht nur rausschmeißen und Zucht und Ordnung, links kann sich auch benehmen und hat trotzdem Interesse, den Film zu verfolgen.

Zum anderen war die Kritik zweigeteilt. Da war zum einen das menschliche Drama, was hinter dem Film steckte. Der Umgang damit hat viele Leute getroffen und sie waren aufgrunddessen geschockt. Das war in der Tat bei diesem Film ein Einzelfall, der sich wohl nie wieder (im Rahmen der Sneak) wiederholen wird. Ich stimme Dir zu, daß dieser Film in diesem Rahmen hätte besser nicht laufen sollen.

Der zweite Punkt war aber die Kritik unabhängig von der Art und des Themas des Filmes. Diese Kritik wurde u.a. (in einem anderem Unterforum) von Kasi Mir und mir ausgedrückt.

Dem Film wurde nicht eine Sekunde lang (!) eine Chance gegeben! Sobald endgültig jedem klar war, daß Freddy und Jason keinen Auftritt haben werden, wurde es sofort laut. Sehr laut. Sehr unsachgemäß laut. Das hatte nichts mehr mit "a few stupid comments" zu tun oder "clapping when the lovebirds are about to kiss". Das war überhaupt nicht mehr inhaltlich an den Film angelehnt. Und wenn der Film schon vorher nicht "enjoyable" für alle war, dann hat dieses Verhalten dazu geführt, daß es für NIEMANDEN mehr etwas brachte. Man konnte nämlich NICHTS mehr hören.

Ich hab absolut nichts gegen Sprüche oder Geräusche in der Sneak. Bei einem schlechten, ruhigen Film verzeih ich sogar, wenn man 5-6 Sätze nicht verstehen kann. Häufig sind da die Kommentare mir dann auch "wichtiger", heißt ich lausche denen.

Aber was in dieser Sneak (ganz unabhängig von der menschlichen Tragödie des Themas des Filmes) abging, war definitiv daneben.

Die Reaktionen in den letzten beiden Wochen waren ja auch deutlich. So ruhig war es bei der Trailershow noch nie. Ich ertappe mich desöfteren dabei, wie ich als Einziger nach einem Trailer klatsche. Ein "Schneekoppe" wurde am Montag ausgelassen. Der an sich äußerst spruchanfällige "Sin Eater" wurde nahezu komplett verschont. Aber ich bin mir sicher, daß es auch wieder etwas unruhiger wird. Ist ja auch okay. Aber "The Guys" war halt def. die Überschreitung des Akzeptablen in der anderen Richtung.

Bis dann
Kai

[Roughale]

Auch wenn das jetzt nicht mehr zu direkt mit The Guys zu tun hat, muss ich mich gegen den Schillparteitag und JU-Fraktionsvergleich währen, denn auch ich habe mich für ein härteres Durchgreifen eingesetzt, weil es einfach Überhand nahm und das nicht nur bei The Guys.

Die Klatschattacken und "Frauenfilm" rufe sind schon lange nicht mehr witzig und wirken genauso Spasshemmend, wie eine härtere Gangart (auch ich hoffe, dass es ohne geht), aber bestimmte Regeln darf man aufstellen, oder? Antiautoritäre Erziehung ist schon längst widerlegt, weil der Mensch nicht dazu geignet ist

Ich habe schnell erkannt, dass mir the Guys nicht zusagt und bin gegangen, so müssen alle reagieren und das tolle Montagsneakerlebnis wir uns nicht genommen. Wer der Meinung ist, dass der Montagssneak zur freien Chaosgestalltung gedacht ist, gehört da nicht hin PUNKT!

[tenth-row bob]

Hello Kai and Roughale,
This discussion might be more interesting if we actually disagreed about something. In fact, I agree with everything Kai wrote above. (If Roughale thinks that "ausziehen"- or "uueeep"-yellers should be thrown out we would disagree about something, but he probably doesn't so we probably don't).
After the Guys evening, the German friends I went to the Sneak with were worried that I wouldn't come to the Sneak anymore because of the "insensitive" or "daneben" reaction of the guests.
Because of the unusual circumstances of that evening and the topic of the film, I was not and am not too concerned that this sort of thing will repeat itself. I was, and am, more concerned that the atmosphere will be poisoned by a witch hunt -- carried out by people I like with the best motives and intentions -- which seems to have happened.
In short, I think the whole thing should have been ignored. The letters to theater owners and the various threats to throw out wrongdoers have scared the sneakers into silence and this, in my opinion, will make the sneak less fun for 95% of the guests if it continues. I hope Kai is right that it won't.

[Roughale]

....If Roughale thinks that "ausziehen"- or "uueeep"-yellers should be thrown out we would disagree about something, but he probably doesn't so we probably don't...

Sorry, I am no way into damning "ausziehen" or "uueepp" yellers! I do that myself and enjoy it, I even catch myself occasionally doing that in a regular movie session, it is good to see some recognizing where it comes from.

I (boringly ) agree with the worries about a witch hunt, but since rules were broken that should be respected by all and realized by normal people (there was talk of tough, almost threatening answers to pleas for a lil quietness during The Guys), it seems to be necessary to put a lil more force on this, I am sure this will not take the normal fun from us who enjoy the sneak within the limits. Jokes, rounds of applause, sometimes even a fitting Boo are absolutely ok by me and should be ok by most as well. But repettitive things within a film stop being funny and should be reduced for a while to become funny again. But one thing that is a definite NoNo is the thickheaded want of a few to cry havoc when a film is beyond their taste and most likely beyond their IQ to understand, one bad remark while leaving the room could be tolerated, but not staying just to have fun on cost of orthers - the 5 Euro does not entitle you to have a party! That is the risk of the sneak and if a film is picked that is not anyone's cup of tea - it is part of the concept, annoying when it happens often, but if it is so bad for anyone, sorry, the sneak seems no place for you... Better hunt for a showing where you'll know beforehand what you'll see

[tenth-row bob]

This is getting a little off the subject -- and this might not be a spot on this website where anyone will read this -- but I have a suggestion that might improve things without having to invent new rules (with a capital "R") to stop evildoers in their tracks.
If we had thrown out the bad guys from the film about the good guys, I doubt they would have cared at all. This will be the case with any bad film that people are trying to sabotage.
What if we give everyone a fair chance to influence the course of things on Monday evening if they don't like the film?
In the US, there used to be a TV game show called the gong show. Performers went on stage and if it was too bad the jury would get out of their seats and ring the gong to stop the singing/dancing/whatever. In the Sneak we could do something similar. If a certain number on people leave (quietly if one prefers) during a certain amount of time (say 100-200 in 30 minutes) then the film would automatically be stopped and "Rumble in the Bronx" would be shown every time. A movie would have to be pretty bad for the sneakers to want to rewatch the Jackie Chan classic for the 15th time, but it would probably happen once or twice a year.
Any comments?

[Kai aus Reihe 9]

Moin!

Idee ist ja ganz lustig, aber im Extremfall:

Ich erinner mich an "Eight-legged freaks". Das war der zweite Film auf dem Sneak-Geburtstag 2002. Innerhalb der ersten 5 Minuten sind min. 250 Leute gegangen. Die wollten den Film nicht sehen. Okay.

Nun würde nach Deinem Muster "Rumble in the bronx" laufen.

WARUM???

Die fast 400, die den Film sehen wollten, wären betrogen worden, die lieber "Rumble in the Bronx" gesehen hätten, wären schon weg.

Vielleicht ist meine Antwort zu ernsthaft, aber ich hab Angst, daß das jemand lesen könnte und länger da bleibt und Krach macht in der Hoffnung Jackie tritt auf

Bis dann
Kai